Recent events have led me to believe that I have come to a realization but to be sure I am not going to include my opinion even though I think I made it clear what my opinion is.
Are we, collectively, participating in a movement or are we a part of a broader message? It appears that the liberty movement has come to butt heads with the message of freedom. An odd place for an impasse if you ask me but this is what I am starting to glean. Lets say that all of the people who come to certain forums and start trouble really aren't paid to do so that they simply want to be a part of a popular movement whose idea resonates with them because it's a movement that is supposed to free us from the chains of government-imposed involuntary servitude.
Let's say they meet a group of people that have decided that it is not about a movement, because movements can be hijacked, that it is really about a message and that message is freedom. The message of freedom to these people means that people should be allowed to do with themselves as they please as long as it does not have any direct negative effects upon another free person.
By definition these groups should not be opposed to each other and should not infringe upon each others rights but it appears that this is the underlying fight. There are those who believe that adherence to certain standards should be followed to the letter to shine the best light upon the movement and are confronted with those who believe that the movement is inside of them and radiates out as the message and the message is more powerful than any movement or how the person defends it.
Before I elaborate further I would like to hear some feedback on whether you think this is part of what is going on, your opinions on this and whether there is a difference between the liberty/freedom movement and the freedom message, and if you wish to explain your position.
There is a lot of great discussion on this thread. You bring up some interesting questions, stick. Thank you for bringing up the topic. It is worth exploring.
I agree totally.
I think that the problem is education... people need to figure out EXACTLY what you just said. Freedom is an idea, a message. NOT part of a movement.
If you can get past that, then you get past the ego portion... and the idea that freedom needs to be ~packaged~ to sell to the masses.
Which will never work, because freedom is inherently not about conformity, or a ~one-size-fits-all~ thing.
Very good perception stick.
~Live life to its fullest... with open arms, an open heart and most importantly, an open mind.~
I think for the freedom movement to be able to proceed from here it must learn to incorporate the actual values of freedom. These include being able to direct your energy where you feel that you want to and how you want to. If you think 9/11 was an inside job go do your thing. If you think 9/11 was done by space beams and nuclear bombs then do your thing. But whatever you do, do it because you want to do it not because you have people telling you what you need to do. Which is of course the conformity and the concept of needing to fit in and/or the concept of feeling like someones ideas are "hurting the movement". As you said, it's not a one size fits all kind of thing, it is a do what you feel is needed and necessary and do it with all the passion of a freeman.
I think this was the most valuable lesson that I learned this last year. I stopped worrying about how I am going to get people on board and to understand just how totally insane the world is hidden behind the thin veil of reality TV and the tragic comedy that has become the news and started focusing on what would be best for me and how can I make myself a freer person. I can't save the world and neither can you, but what we can do is change our lifestyles for the better, which is also not a pre-packaged idea, and go from there. It is my belief that as long as you are trying to truly better your place the rest starts to fall into place as long as you pay attention and allow it to. Your thoughts for the night threads really helped that sink in for me.
Two-edged sword...
I again agree with you totally, however...
The idea itself needs promoted. The freedom thang.
To do that with what we will politely call the unawakened, you need to start with a filter that you can rip... change thier thought process a bit and get them really thinking. That's why I've done the 911 deal online so much, simply because it's the easiest one to pick on. Kill that idea and people are much more open on other subjects.
If you can get them past the official conspiracy theory it's a start. However, then they will STILL gravitate towards a group, or a mental place to camp.
I think of it exactly that way, btw. A campsite that you sit at on the path towards realization. There are other like-minded people there, so you bond, you conform, you lose track of the whole idea of freedom in the first place... because you are defending the camp then, you see.
Really waking up is a process, a slow and painful one nowadays. There are going to be many places that people camp at, to stop and assimulate. Some will never leave that particular camp, others will go on and really wake up.
You do realize that you are one of the main reasons I even came back online after my little trip. I saw that I actually made a difference, so it keeps me hoping... :)
~Live life to its fullest... with open arms, an open heart and most importantly, an open mind.~
Yes, yes, and yes
The whole camp analogy is brilliant.
I even think of this place as a camp but more of a base camp than just another camp on the trail. The reason I see it that way is because we are all very dynamic and all have very different things that make us tick and excite our minds. So we all go off in different directions searching for staples and supplies to bring back to this camp to build up a larder so that we can venture out again and prosper. Sometimes we have to retrace our steps to grab the hands of some that are being held captive at a different camp and sometimes we get to all take a trip off further down the trail. But all of it requires preparation and diligence and while we work within the structure of our movement we are all also still free within it and because we protect ourselves with the actual implementation of freedom we do not have to waste resources and energy quite as often defending the camp.
I am glad that I have had an equal impact back upon your life and I have done what you asked me to do which is to attempt to take the message to others. It is a discouraging job, especially with the mindset of the average person, but it is so rewarding when you see the gears start to turn again. In doing so you also realize that every time you start someone else down the trail you have not only helped them (even if they don't know it or feel it right way) you have helped yourself as well because as most of us realize this is truly and informational war and every mind that is unlocked is one less to be used against us. It doesn't matter what path someone ends up taking as long as they have the courage to take the first step.
Think About This
You compare Hidden Places, or LLF, as a base camp. What do we have here that is sorely lacking at DP or any other forum?
We are all different here, and like you said we go out and forage information we think might interest the rest of the group.
What makes us different is we share a mutual respect for each others beliefs, while keeping our eye on the prize of freedom. No one here tries to jam anything down anyone's throat. We have a much better "live and let live" attitude than anyplace I've ever been. I don't know if it's because we are a small group, but there doesn't seem to be camps within the base camp.
That's what's wrong with the Republican party, amongst other more obvious things. Everyone has their own axe to grind, and they drag it to the table, and end up with a bunch of mini-camps. They absolutely cannot unite.
I know you are prolly all tired of hearing my "herding cats" analogy, but it fits. And my bit about picking your battles. I don't understand why people have to be so uncompromising in their expectations when so very much is at stake.
LIVE and let live.
I tend to believe it is because we are such a small group that contributes most to the cohesiveness of our little camp.
It doesn't hurt that we all have the same underlying principals either.
We all realize that it's individualism that makes the group strong regardless of what that person thinks or feels. As long as they are thinking and are active in their own life there is nothing more to ask of someone. We don't have to force anyone to think what we think because we just don't have to. In my opinion that is actual;y what keeps this group small. Khomar would have to give you the numbers but I bet we got a bunch of click-thrus and probably 4 registrations with 1 or 2 people that may post semi regularly from when I posted the link on the DP. That's a blessing and a curse as it shows that we are truly out there on somethings that most people just aren't ready to talk about.
This topic is one of those.
The cool thing is, as I see it, we attract like minds because of how we all present ourselves which will continue to create the nurturing environment that has been created.
A very good point...
Call it collectivism, herd mentality, groupthink, whatever... the majority of people want to belong TO a group. After all, it identifies you, gives you a purpose. A purpose that you didn't even have to think of, since someone thought it up for you.
At the end of the day, the vast majority of people don't want to think about it at all, because it revolves around personal responsibility. If everyone were actually personally reponsible for thier own lives, our current system would collapse.
If you are personally responsible for your own life and those of your family, that is a huge burden. The burden is lifted if an entity (insert government here) gives you a sort of insurance against hardship. Some people sign up, more people take it, soon it beomes the norm.
Then you are trapped in the velvet glove of slavery.
However, it is a group you can belong to... like-minded people who sold out too. Belonging with them assauges the guilt of selling out in the first place, because after all, everyone is doing it!
This is how a small group of people with power can end up owning everything simply by using human nature against humans.
~Live life to its fullest... with open arms, an open heart and most importantly, an open mind.~
Freedom to think what and do what you want.....such a difficult process
For Some
For some people, it's very difficult. I mean, that's why we "NEED" a Leader, because most people are followers, sheep, unawake, whatever you want to call them. They would not dream of undertaking anything, without leadership.
They will not budge, unless "someone" sounds the alarm. I sure wish Ron Paul was President. {{sigh}}
LIVE and let live.
but don't we have to worry about what the world will think of us
/rolls eyes
Base Camp...
I love the analogy.
As far as the rest of it, thank you again for helping spread the word. You are more aware than most that the only thing that is going to change what is coming up is a change of mindset.. a HUGE one.
So everyone counts... we take our disappointments home at the end of the day and use them as fuel for the next day.
A lot of cultures have written about it, some have made it into a science. The concept is always the same, however. Being a warrior is not about your physical prowess at all... it is your mind that wins the day.
Info-war indeed... :)
~Live life to its fullest... with open arms, an open heart and most importantly, an open mind.~
oh .. please do continue.
i think it ties into ram's teaching about chaos.
we inherently like order because it improves our chances at survival.
that's good for mortals but not good for individuals who want to push the envelope.
so while we are on our spiritual journey we will be slammed up against this mortal limitation repeatedly... till we get our 'box' bigger.
its is a major hurdle we all face on our journey of making known the unknown.
because we inherently like 'sameness'/order/predictibility ... we also get chemically addicted to it. literally. review the film 'what the bleep' and candace's book 'molecules of emotion' for info on this.
thanks for pointing this out:
"There are those who believe that adherence to certain standards should be followed to the letter to shine the best light upon the movement and are confronted with those who believe that the movement is inside of them and radiates out as the message and the message is more powerful than any movement or how the person defends it."
i certainly needed reminding. i LOVE to look backwards. i LOVE order. i LOVE predictibility.
its THE attitude that has sidelined me from rse.
There is nothing wrong with order just as there is nothing wrong with chaos. It is the extent and the outcomes of both of these states of being that are key.
If something that is supposed to be geared toward the furthering of freedom is stifling the free expression of freedom then it by definition is a farce. This thread was obviously inspired by what went down at the dailypaul and I think they all need a reminder of what it is that they are supposed to be fighting for. Like I said in my original post, forget the idea that there are paid for shills there to divide and conquer and create chaos, lets pretend that everyone is there on their own volition. People are drawn to the Ron Paul school of thought because they inherently feel the need to be allowed to do what they want. People want to feel in control of their lives. Many have acquiesced to the ideas of structural control over their loves but deep inside they yearn to be free.
So is it that they just fall back into the status quo after tasting freedom? Or is it that they get so scared that without a blueprint of how they are supposed to live their lives that they may fail and not have anyone to blame but themselves.
I think it's the latter and the reason I think this is because I had to fail totally to figure it out. I failed so miserably that it completely shook the cobwebs out of my head and I was shocked back into the real world. I failed and lost my freedom and in that instant I realized why it was so important. My concern about this is that I had a couple of great life teachers growing up that gave me a great foundation to return to, most of my generation and even more of the current teen/young adult generation do not have this same kind of foundation. They only know the structure and the order that the state has imposed upon them in the Agenda 21 education camps, have no critical thinking experience, are taught that truth and morals are relative, and that order and sameness is how you are supposed to be as those who step out of line are ostracized.
So my question to you would be, do you think these people still have the built-in genetic desire to be free or will they always go running back to structure and set standards? Do all people have the ability to actually be free or will those who inherently chose structure over freedom always rise to positions of power and from there impose their will upon the rest. How does a person like this find their bigger box, or are they forever stuck in this loop where they never move on to the next cosmic experience.
to answer your question stick...
"So my question to you would be, do you think these people still have the built-in genetic desire to be free or will they always go running back to structure and set standards? Do all people have the ability to actually be free or will those who inherently chose structure over freedom always rise to positions of power and from there impose their will upon the rest. How does a person like this find their bigger box, or are they forever stuck in this loop where they never move on to the next cosmic experience."
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everyone has the desire.... most squash it though or allow their circle of influence to squash it for them.
most people check in with the 'herd' first. you know ... asking friends and family ... 'hey ... what do you think of this idea?' ... most ideas bite the dust here.
straying from the herd isn't encouraged. that is how society falls apart. doesn't matter how tribal or how 'civilized'. it is the human condition.
it is one of the diseases of the mind ... it is that ingrained and it is genetic now ... as it has been with us since the beginning. http://hiddenplaces.org/main/node/576 ... his interview isn't posted yet but it will be by monday.
humans don't fully get rid of this until they become a christ or ascend. even the immortal goddeses still have this to some extent. but that's another story.
yes, people will always go running back to structure no matter what. the research out of psychology and sociology has firmly demonstrated this.
most people have the ability to be free. those with mental disabilities and those who do heavy drug use don't. if you have a damaged brain ... you're limited in what you can do. your brain is a holy, holy, organ. if you want the specifics on why ... joe dispenza is the guy to listen to. http://beyondtheordinary.net/joedispenza.shtml
people who crave power will always rise to positions of power. people who crave structure will always willingly give their power away to significant others, bosses, clients, family members, teachers, policemen, governments, doctors, etc. it has always been and will always be this way. it is fundamentally the human condition.
people who have a strong craving for structure will continue to incarnate into the same situation until they grow exceedingly bored of it.
frustration is a sign to move on. or at least to re-evaluate and do some tweaking personally. one's grid begins to rub them the wrong way. (a form of chaos) it is how new growth (a new grid/a new box) is born.
you have to be really bored to go searching for ways to expand your box.
but even then ... only on your terms.
example ...
a friend of mine who is a rse student ... won't go down rabbit holes. won't look at conspiracy stuff at all. gets her too down.
me ... i'm not at school right now 'cause i won't do the tank discipline.
ram always says he has to treat us with kiddie gloves because our egos are too big, we're too sensitive, we're too vain, we have too much pride, we don't like to change too much or too fast.
we like the yummy runners but not the runners that shake us up.
this human experience ... for us... has been going on for 10 million + lifetimes. ... so we could argue ... that we're all stuck. :)
as a mortal human ... the ultimate achievement is to become a christ or ascend.
it just means we have complete mastery of the human body with our mind. we still have a personality but it is clean and pure. what our god (our observer as in quantum physics) commands, is carried out with no objection from our personality. it is that mind that allows for instantaneous manifestation ... wine and bread out of thin air (not really..all matter comes from the grid), how we heal someone instantaneously. you can close your eyes ... go to point zero (god/ the observer) in the time it takes you to snap your fingers ... and voila ... whatever you focused on materializes.
cleaning our our neuronets (personality) and mastering the art of focus is the name of the game.